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Camera recommendations

 
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allistairg1964



登録日: 2017.01.08
記事: 12

記事日時: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:49 am    記事の件名: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

Hi
I am currently using a Samsung SCB2000
Please recommend any others?
Thank you
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:05 am    記事の件名: Re: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

allistairg1964 wrote:
Hi
I am currently using a Samsung SCB2000
Please recommend any others?
Thank you


Most popular camera for night sky observation is Watec 902H2Ultimate or Watec 100N.
The minimum illumination of this camera is 0.0001 lx.
While SCB2000 is 0.15lx.
I guess SCB2000 is too bad for night sky.

Please be aware that slow shutter or frame stacking is NOT usable for motion detection. So never to select such cameras like WATEC-910HX.

My current recommendation is Watec 902H2Ultimate or 902H3Ultimate for SD (NTSCorPAL),
and Panasonic DMC-GH3 for HD, Sony ILCE-7S for 4K30p.

see figures of my station
http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3530
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allistairg1964



登録日: 2017.01.08
記事: 12

記事日時: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:57 pm    記事の件名: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

Hi
impressive set up
Thanks

SonotaCo wrote:
allistairg1964 wrote:
Hi
I am currently using a Samsung SCB2000
Please recommend any others?
Thank you


Most popular camera for night sky observation is Watec 902H2Ultimate or Watec 100N.
The minimum illumination of this camera is 0.0001 lx.
While SCB2000 is 0.15lx.
I guess SCB2000 is too bad for night sky.

Please be aware that slow shutter or frame stacking is NOT usable for motion detection. So never to select such cameras like WATEC-910HX.

My current recommendation is Watec 902H2Ultimate or 902H3Ultimate for SD (NTSCorPAL),
and Panasonic DMC-GH3 for HD, Sony ILCE-7S for 4K30p.

see figures of my station
http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3530
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William Stewart



登録日: 2010.08.11
記事: 13

記事日時: Wed May 03, 2017 3:48 pm    記事の件名: Re: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

[quote="SonotaCo"]
allistairg1964 wrote:

Please be aware that slow shutter or frame stacking is NOT usable for motion detection. So never to select such cameras like WATEC-910HX.


Hi SonotaCo,

I (and a number of other members of the NEMETODE team) are successfully using the Watec 910 HX/RC for meteor work. No integration is required, it can be operated in video mode at 25 fps (PAL) and I'd estimate that it has at least +1 magnitude greater sensitivity than the Watec 902H2 Ultimate operating at the same frame rate..

I have mine fitted with a Computar 2.6mm f1.0 lens and I'd estimate that the stellar limiting magnitude is better than +3.5, allowing a decent registration profile to be generated (>60 stars). The 902H2 Ultimate does not have enough sensitivity to achieve the same result.

I know that Bill Ward uses them for his spectral work and they're popular too with the asteroid occultation observers.

Best regards

William



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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Wed May 03, 2017 7:33 pm    記事の件名: Re: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

William Stewart wrote:
it has at least +1 magnitude greater sensitivity than the Watec 902H2 Ultimate operating at the same frame rate..

The point is not frame rate but actual shutter speed.
What is your shutter speed and sense up setting of your 910HX?
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William Stewart



登録日: 2010.08.11
記事: 13

記事日時: Wed May 03, 2017 11:59 pm    記事の件名: Re: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

SonotaCo wrote:
William Stewart wrote:
it has at least +1 magnitude greater sensitivity than the Watec 902H2 Ultimate operating at the same frame rate..

The point is not frame rate but actual shutter speed.
What is your shutter speed and sense up setting of your 910HX?


Hi SonotaCo,

Our recommendations are 1/50s for "Shutter Speed" and "Sens UP" set to OFF. See Table 6 of http://nemetode.org/Technical%20Notes/TechNote%2001%20Watec%20Cameras%2020150127_03.pdf

Do you have any concerns about these settings?

Best regards

William
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Thu May 04, 2017 8:09 am    記事の件名: Re: Camera recommendations 引用付きで返信

William Stewart wrote:
Our recommendations are 1/50s for "Shutter Speed" and "Sens UP" set to OFF.

Yes, it is reasonable.

Again, I explain my recommendation.
From their data sheet,

902H2Ultimate > Minimum illumination 0.0001 lx. F1.4
910HX > Minimum illumination 0.000005lx. F1.4 (Shutter: x256, AGC: HIGH, γ:0.35)

and 0.000005 * 256 = 0.00128 >> 0.0001
so I believed the native CCD sensitivity of 902H2Ultimate is far better than 910HX .
(If this is not real but current 910HX has better native sensitivity, please let me know the detail.)

As for Sense Up (slow shutter or frame stacking), it brightens still objects such as stars or background, but not brightens moving or transitional objects.
So Sense up is effective to get still images that contain reference stars,
but it means it decrease the contrast of moving objects and make it difficult to detect them.
So I am still recommending 902H2Ultimate.
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Bill W



登録日: 2012.02.13
記事: 129
所在地: Glasgow

記事日時: Fri May 05, 2017 6:05 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi,
This is really intruiging/interesting!

Regarding Williams' comments, he is correct. I have retired all of my 902H2 Ultimate cameras from spectroscopy and I now use 910 camera's exclusively for spectroscopy (currently 4, in regular use)

With no frame integration, no dnr, agc set to min (comporable to the 902H2U mid, manual setting) there is a significant improvement of the 910 over the 902.

See attached picture from late 2014.

The 910 clearly has a better limiting mag. The lens is the same, that is, I took it off the 902 to put it onto the 910.

Cheers,
Bill.

PS. There might be some difference between early and later versions of the 910. Some dealers advertise the 910 with the "latest" chip so there may well have been a production improvement with a better sensor.



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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Bill W wrote:
Hi,
This is really intruiging/interesting!

Regarding Williams' comments, he is correct. I have retired all of my 902H2 Ultimate cameras from spectroscopy and I now use 910 camera's exclusively for spectroscopy (currently 4, in regular use)

With no frame integration, no dnr, agc set to min (comporable to the 902H2U mid, manual setting) there is a significant improvement of the 910 over the 902.

See attached picture from late 2014.

The 910 clearly has a better limiting mag. The lens is the same, that is, I took it off the 902 to put it onto the 910.

Cheers,
Bill.

PS. There might be some difference between early and later versions of the 910. Some dealers advertise the 910 with the "latest" chip so there may well have been a production improvement with a better sensor.


Wow Shocked
Thank you so much for testing. This clears the foggy problem. It means Watec's data sheet should be updated.
I will buy and test 910. I hope those NTSC models sold in Japan are the same.
--------------------------------------
Watec's data sheets are already updated. It says (201705)
910HX: 0.0000025 lx F1.4 (AGC=HI, γ=0.35, 3DNR ON, Shutter=x256) ,,,, twice better than before
http://www.watec.co.jp/English/eng_spec/WAT-910HX_eng.pdf
But still .... it cannot be compared with 901H2U
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Fri May 05, 2017 9:53 pm    記事の件名: W902H2U vs W910HX 引用付きで返信

I bought Watec 910HX(serial: W154BE02394) (EIA without RC model) today, and did a first compatision with 902H2Ultimate.
Both setting is equal (shutter time 1/60 sec fixed, sense up OFF, gamma OFF, AGC low, lens = CBC6mmF0.8, cap = GV-USB2)
Below is the result of the first light....

But, sorry, tonight, spring night of Tokyo, is too bright to show the difference of the two cameras....
This means, Watec910HX has equivalent native sensitivity to Watec 902H2Ultimate at least. and Bill's result is quite probable.

I will continue testing, and will comment again.



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Watec 902H2 Ultimate w 6mmF0.8
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profile of 902H2U
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profile of 910HX
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9024
所在地: 139.66E 35.65N

記事日時: Sat May 06, 2017 9:23 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

I took another sample as below.
http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45750

It seems, I cannot find difference under bright sky of Tokyo.
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Bill W



登録日: 2012.02.13
記事: 129
所在地: Glasgow

記事日時: Sat May 06, 2017 10:50 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi,
The PAL cameras run at 1/50 sec so that may explain a little of the difference as it is a slightly longer effective exposure.

However at first I was very skeptical of the 910 too. The initial results I saw clearly put the 902 ahead.

It was only discussing this camera at a couple of IMC's it appeared that some change had been made.

I even email WATEC but did not receive any reply. I think the manufacturers keep this information private for commercial reasons.

Whatever they've done I wish they'd make an HD megapixel version, I'd buy one!
(QHY have just released a camera claiming "mag +8 to +9 at 30 fps with a 50mm f1.4 lens", that could be a powerful meteor observing tool if true.!)

regards,
Bill.
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brahe



登録日: 2013.03.08
記事: 12
所在地: http://forum.bourky.com/viewforum.php?f=30

記事日時: Sat May 06, 2017 5:11 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

I'm watching TLE with the Watec 910hx camera and it's the best camera. When I watched the same area with the Watec 910hx camera and 902h2 the number of TLE or meteor was about the same, but the quality was better. The image is the same sprites of several types of cameras.[img][/img]


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brahe



登録日: 2013.03.08
記事: 12
所在地: http://forum.bourky.com/viewforum.php?f=30

記事日時: Sat May 06, 2017 5:14 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Here Elves from April with the Watec 910hx camera
http://forum.bourky.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1712
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William Stewart



登録日: 2010.08.11
記事: 13

記事日時: Sat May 06, 2017 10:13 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Bill W wrote:

PS. There might be some difference between early and later versions of the 910. Some dealers advertise the 910 with the "latest" chip so there may well have been a production improvement with a better sensor.


Hi Bill,

Yes, following the initial release of the 910HX Watec began producing newer models containing a sensor that was twice as sensitive as the earlier version. Confusingly they retained the "910" designation. The more sensitive cameras have serial numbers of 1001 onwards.

Best regards

William
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