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probably gigantic jet or new tipology of TLE ? from Italy

 
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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
記事: 42

記事日時: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:58 am    記事の件名: probably gigantic jet or new tipology of TLE ? from Italy 引用付きで返信

Hi,

with color camera i captured this probable gigantic jet from Italy, but some peculiarities might make a new type of TLE, note the crown of sprites around.

What do you think?

for video:

http://meteore.forumattivo.com/giant-sprites-f43/giant-red-sprite-grs-t674.htm


some peculiarities might make a new type of TLE, note the crown of sprites around.

What do you think?

Best Regards

Ferruccio Zanotti

Italian Meteor and TLE Network

http://meteore.forumattivo.com/



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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9931
所在地: 139.67E 35.65N

記事日時: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:28 pm    記事の件名: Re: probably gigantic jet or new tipology of TLE ? from Ita 引用付きで返信

Hi Ferruccio

Wow Exclamation Wonderful and amazing Shocked Shocked

Thank you for sharing a big news. And ... it is color Razz
May be this is the first capture of a gigantic TLE in EU.
Ferruccio Zanotti wrote:
some peculiarities might make a new type of TLE, note the crown of sprites around.

Yes, I it is what I have never seen.
Unfortunately, the sequence of lower part is not clear (may be because of the frame rate of the color camera). So I cannot decide weather it is Gigantic jet or huge sprite.
Anyway, this huge TLE with the crown sprites around may be the first capture in the world.
How is your opnion? > Oscar,Ada, .. and all

Can you estimate the height of each part of luminescence?
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9931
所在地: 139.67E 35.65N

記事日時: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:18 pm    記事の件名: Re: probably gigantic jet or new tipology of TLE ? from Ita 引用付きで返信

Ferruccio Zanotti wrote:
the crown of sprites around.

Though it was not huge event, we have observed sprites aligned on a circle.
http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=632#3471
http://manabi.mpec.jp/kishou/131/131.html
It is not usual, but is not so rare. There were some captures like this.

--------------
I have mailed this event to some professional TLE researchers in Japan.
They showed big interests on this event. They are asking ...
How tall was it?
How long was the diameter of the crown?
What were the camera and lens?
Do you have some kind of radio wave data?

Any information about this event will help them.
B.T.W., I used the term "gigantic TLE", because I could not distinguish weather it was "Gigantic Jet" or huge sprite. So the term might be inappropriate.
A sample of huge sprite event is here.
http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=743
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Lightningwizard



登録日: 2007.10.19
記事: 154

記事日時: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:37 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi Ferrucio,

that for sure is the first recorded gigantic jet for Europe! And it is indeed surrounded by some sprites. It looks very similar to the event of 29 November 2008 in Japan: http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1880
It is amazing because the clouds on satellite hardly looked like thunderstorms. I was observing with the camera of Pic du Midi for Geminids. I looked at the satellite several times to see if in my village the sky would clear. I did not notice the storms!! I was busy with other things and forgot to check lightning... So it hurt when I discovered your event occurred west of Corsica, well within reach of the camera I operated Crying or Very sad (it would be a nice triangulation). I found the stars in your image and could locate the event by assuming 85 to 95 km top (rough azimuth and elevation 220-221° and 15°).

I would like to investigate this case with you and other researchers in Europe who have ELF/VLF data. Your computer clock hopefully was synchronized by NTP? If not, please find out the clock difference by checking a reliable source on the web like NIST (do not sync it before that!) I think the time stamp was UT? I need this information before I will send a request for others who look in their data. Of course, if a publication results you will be co-author Smile Did anyone else in your network capture it?

Oscar
oscarvdvelde@yahoo.com

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EuroSprite blog:
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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
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記事日時: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:45 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

hi, every one,

From the first provisional calculations, the maximum altitude to 120 km. The lowest altitude from 15 km ... The estimated distance and still under verification, is around 227 km from the observer, direction SW!

It was at 84 km SE from the coast of Nice - southern France, in the open sea.

Best Regards

Ferruccio Zanotti

Italian Meteor and TLE Network
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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
記事: 42

記事日時: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:52 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

the computer time is sincronyzed with time server every hour, and precision is +/- 1s

Best Regards

Ferruccio Zanotti
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Lightningwizard



登録日: 2007.10.19
記事: 154

記事日時: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:23 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Ferruccio Zanotti wrote:
hi, every one,

From the first provisional calculations, the maximum altitude to 120 km. The lowest altitude from 15 km ... The estimated distance and still under verification, is around 227 km from the observer, direction SW!

It was at 84 km SE from the coast of Nice - southern France, in the open sea.


What did you base that on? That top altitude and distance make no sense.
You were in Montignoso, right? Say 44.02°N, 10.17°E? From the stars at your location at 2336 UT I find a good match with those in the image in direction southwest, constellation Eridanus, with the jet top at about 220.5° and 15° above horizon. For higher precision I would fit them exactly. Then I run my great circle path calculator from your location, and it finds a location 80 km west of Ajaccio on Corsica, 200 km south of Nice, corresponding to 90 km height. That is at 305 km from Montignoso.

A greater altitude could only be at a even longer distance, or conversely, at a shorter distance you would get a much lower altitude (for 227 km it would be 65 km high. Unless your angle above the horizon was somehow 27° and also the azimuth needs to be around 240° to get so close to the French coast. Something's fishy...

Oscar

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EuroSprite blog:
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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
記事: 42

記事日時: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:10 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

the staff at work... Wink

Ferruccio Zanotti

IMTN
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SonotaCo
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登録日: 2004.08.07
記事: 9931
所在地: 139.67E 35.65N

記事日時: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:34 pm    記事の件名: Rough measurement 引用付きで返信

Hi
I analyzed the clip by UFOAnalyzerV2.
There are over 25 stars on the clip, therefore the plate matching was well done.
But I used roughly estimated position of 44.02N and 10.17E as the location of site.
So, this result may have a bit of errors.
Can you let me know the precise longitude and latitude of the observation site? > Ferruccio
then I will update this.

Does anyone have the satellite cloud image around this time?



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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
記事: 42

記事日時: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:20 pm    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi,

Sorry but the indication given of my staff "..... at 84 km SE from the coast of Nice... " was wrong in the sense that it was expressed in miles and not km. In km becomes 135 km.

the exact coordinates of the place of observation are:

Montignoso (Massa ) Italy - longitude (E +): 10.1521 Latitude (N +): 44.0096

Mintron 62V6HP-EX Colour Camera Computar 6mm Lens f: 0.8

Best Regards

Ferruccio Zanotti

IMTN

http://meteore.forumattivo.com/
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Lightningwizard



登録日: 2007.10.19
記事: 154

記事日時: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:49 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Ferruccio Zanotti wrote:
Hi,
Sorry but the indication given of my staff "..... at 84 km SE from the coast of Nice... " was wrong in the sense that it was expressed in miles and not km. In km becomes 135 km.


Hello Ferrucio,

I can have a look with the person who made that calculation. But I'm confident it is not correct. In fact, I get the same star fix as SonotaCo but with my other star software (223° for the GJ, almost 15° top). As you can see, the left side of the image is closer to Corsica than Nice.
I have seen also your blue jet / starter / upward lightning like observations on the forum, very interesting. I have recorded similar events but at large distance from Spain (not the same night). They look related to something recorded in Japan in February 2007. In fact, it could be good to have a closer look at similarities between Japanese winter jet/lightning events, but it needs coordination with Dr. Takahashi and the observers.

I understand you and the others of your network are in contact with Enrico as intermediate person. I await your team's decisions how to organize the analysis. I hope we don't come across as being offensive or as wanting to steal your data. All of my colleagues respect your great efforts, and of your dedicated team, and in case of scientific publication you deserve to get proper credit by co-authorship.

By the way, did anybody else record the same events? I suppose there were many more events that night.

cheers,
Oscar

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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
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記事日時: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:42 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi Oscar and Sonotaco,

no problem for collaboration,

I post the map of cloud for 22:30-22:45 and our position calculation of GJ

P.S: Mintron set sense up 2x ( 1/25s )

Best Regards

Ferruccio Zanotti

IMTN



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Lightningwizard



登録日: 2007.10.19
記事: 154

記事日時: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:24 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

That location and direction looks more like it.

Here are my precise starfix and the map corresponding to the great circle path with positions marked corresponding to the top height of most previous events.
I am curious if the sprite that occurs during the trailing jet phase is caused by a +CG. If so, its location can provide further confirmation. Looking at the "overshoot" the jet top can be quite a bit higher than the sprite, but the sprite could also be behind the jet. In the Japanese case, the subsequent sprite was also displaced from the jet.

I look forward to hear from you and Enrico how we can best organize ourselves. There are several aspects and groups who'd like to analyze their electromagnetic data, and myself I'd like to get a thorough discussion of the meteorological aspects (storm and lightning activity, similarities with Japanese events if possible, similarities and differences with other events which are rather tropical). An important aspect for the electromagnetic data is if we can find out the polarity and quantity of charge transfer.
For morphological aspects (speed, altitudes) we need the raw material (preferably uncompressed if you have) and also that of any other sprites, elves, halos, upward lightning or jets. Could you send me your email address? You probably also have already mail from Enrico. We're trying to organize ourselves in cooperation with you guys Smile We look forward to hearing from you.

Oscar



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Ferruccio Zanotti



登録日: 2009.09.10
記事: 42

記事日時: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:07 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Hi Oscar and Sonotaco

you could also subscrive the forum IMTN there is a section in English TLE Wink

For us it would be a real pleasure

http://meteore.forumattivo.com/forum.htm

Best Regards

Ferruccio
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登録日: 2004.08.07
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記事日時: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:32 am    記事の件名: 引用付きで返信

Ferruccio Zanotti wrote:
you could also subscrive the forum IMTN there is a section in English TLE Wink

OK, I will go there.
------
http://meteore.forumattivo.com/tle-transient-luminous-events-f34/gigantic-jet-captured-by-italian-meteor-and-tle-network-t677.htm
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